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County town

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Now that the county council is headquartered in Reigate, making it the de facto county town, the whole section needs revising or deleting. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 09:04, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The location of the County Council does not determine the status of Count Town. However: since there is no evidence that Guildford is the County Town, I could go along with the section's deletion. Problem is, that someone is bound to readd it. 86.171.232.240 (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Guildford is not and never has been the county town of Surrey. Guildford Council itself makes no claim to this status and has indeed denied the status.
Certain obstinate historians (both past and present) at Guildford Museum are determined to claim that Guildford has always been the county town. It is they that have made two separate and unrelated claims as to why this is so. Many separate works that also make the claim are merely repeating the claim when it is presented as part of their research in Guildford.
The first was the claim that Henry IV granted the standard measures to Guildford's care, but the grant itself makes no claim that this bestowed the status of County Town and there is no other evidence that this is the case. That was pure WP:SYNTHESIS by the original museum curator. The reality is that, historically, more than one town had standard measures because of the difficulty in transporting such large and heavy objects around a whole county by horse and carriage to where they were required. Today, every Trading Standards department of any Town or Borough Council is required to have a complete set of such measures, and almost every such Council has such a department.
The second, and currently oft quoted claim, is that Henry III granted a County Court to Guildford. Again the grant itself makes no claim that this granted the status of County Town and there is no other evidence that this is the case. Once again this is pure WP:SYNTHESIS by both the original and current curators as well as other staff. In any case: County Courts have always existed in more than one town in most counties, just as they do today.
The reality is that the County Town is the administrative centre of the county (just as a Capital City is the administrative centre of a country). The County Town of Surrey was officially Southwark while it was in Surrey. The border marker between Surrey and Kent is still visible on the banks of the Thames very close to the current border of the London Boroughs of Southwark and Lewisham. Southwark was absorbed into London in the 19th century and the County Council moved to new premises in Kingston-upon-Thames to make way for the new Southwark Council (later to become a Borough Council). Kingston became the official County Town at this time. Kingston itself was subsequently absorbed into (what was now) Greater London in 1965 and consequently lost the status of County Town, at least officially. However: the County Council remained in Kingston for nearly sixty years and the status of County Town was consequently undefined. Nearly all County Towns are the administrative centre of their respective County Councils, but where that is not the case is usually only because the Council has moved elsewhere (usually to save money) but the County Town status has officially remained unchanged.
The administrative centre of Surrey County Council moved to Reigate in 2021, so at least in theory, Reigate could be the County Town, but there has been no official announcement on the matter as of this posting.
This was all covered in this article until a year or two ago when some editor removed it. 2A00:23C8:9883:A001:E5FB:E771:C0D0:7BE7 (talk) 13:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The job of Wikipedia editors is to find reliable sources (WP:RS), to incorporate their content into articles with appropriate paraphrasing and to add an appropriate citation. Henry Elliot Malden wrote in the Victoria County History in 1911: "Guildford is the old county town of Surrey". Similarly, David M. Palliser wrote in an academic work in 2006: "Guildford seems usually to have functioned as the county town from the twelfth century". Both of these sources easily pass the quality threshold of WP:RS.
Academics are trained to synthesise information from multiple sources and to draw appropriate conclusions - that is essentially their job. We, as Wikipedia editors are not allowed to synthesise, which is why WP:SYNTHESIS exists. However, we can incorporate conclusions that an academic has drawn from their research and published.
You might disagree with the conclusion that they have drawn, in which case you need to get reputable publisher to publish your research, which we can then cite here on Wikipedia.
You have mentioned the grant of the County Court, which is mentioned in the article under the "Governance" section - this has not been removed as you claim.
The opinions of museum curators, council officials, tourism bureaux workers etc are irrelevant - they are not cited in the article.
The only question remaining therefore is: Does the wording "Guildford has historically been considered the county town" accurately reflect Malden (1911) and Palliser (2006)? Indeed it does and appropriately paraphrases the conclusions that they have drawn (and are entitled to draw as established academics) without committing a copyright violation. 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:1480:66C6:81BD:83E0 (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Palliser only says "seems usually"" which is hardly a ringing endorsement of the theory. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And Malden says "Guildford is the old county town of Surrey", which is somewhat stronger. 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:1480:66C6:81BD:83E0 (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note "functioned as the county town from the twelfth century" is quite a long tenure? So presumably no other candidates for about 700 or 800 years? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The assizes moved around a fair bit - as they did in many counties - they were held in Leatherhead, Reigate, Kingston and Southwark (and perhaps others) in addition to Guildford. The County Court was permanently at Guildford (after Henry III), although Leatherhead objected in 1259 - see Palliser. There doesn't appear to have been a serious rival to the claim of County Town until Surrey County Council, sitting at Newington, was formed in 1889. 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:1480:66C6:81BD:83E0 (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The great problem here is that the two references that have been provided to support this supposition give entirely different criteria as to what purports to be a County Town. They cannot both be correct. You need to pick the one that is reliable and correct. Unfortunately neither are.

The best authority on what is historically correct in Surrey is the Surrey History Centre (SHC) in Woking run by the Surrey County Council themselves.

The SHC maintain that at this time, Guildford is not the County Town of Surrey and there is nothing anywhere that says it is apart from one Mathew Alexander, the ex curator of Guildford Museum who is somehow determined to insist that it is. [I can legitimately quote his name because it crops up again below.]

The first reference provided, Palliser, stated that, "Henty III granted a charter that the County Court should always be held there [Guildford]" (paraphrased reasonably well from the original Latin). SCH have the original charter, and though it does indeed state what is claimed, absolutely nowhere does it state that this makes Guildford a County Town. There is no independent evidence that this is the case either. Palliser claims that "Guildford seems usually to have functioned as the county town from the twelfth century". Unfortunately this relies on a work by Alexander who is not accepted by SCH (or anyone else) as reliable on this point. And, "... seems usually to ..." is hardly conclusive of anything.

The County Court moved occasionally from time to time, but none of the towns it moved to became the County Town. The County Court found its way back to Guildford for many years in far from ideal premises which it had to share with the Crown Court. The pressures on the courts became big enough that something much more ideal had to be found - anywhere. Fortuitously: a large tract of land became available when the town gas works complex was decommissioned with the arrival of natural gas which allowed a sensible sized purpose built County Court to be constructed, housing also the Magistrates' Court. Four Crown Courts and a police station also occupied the site. Had this site not become available, the County Court may well have been elsewhere entirely.

The second reference, Malden, states that Henry IV made a statute that "Guildford is named as one of the county towns where standard measures are to be kept." SHC also have a facsimile of the the statute and this is not an accurate quote (even after translating from the original Latin). Big problem: the charter also names Southwark, Kingston, Epsom and Dorking (in separate clauses) where standard measures are to be kept. The upshot is: that the interpretation that is being relied on means that Surrey had at least five county towns simultaneously all at the same time - never happens. Examination of the statute provides the answer: the Latin has been mistranslated (deliberately or otherwise). The paraphrased inaccurate quote is more accurate as, "Guildford is named as one of the county's towns where standard measures are to be kept" (my emphasis). There can be lots of towns in a county but only ever one County Town.

Southwark was the official county town of Surrey until 1889 (just looked the date up in my Guildford Town Guide notes (of which I am one)), hence my vagary above. Kingston-upon-Thames took over the role until 1965 when it too became part of London. The County Council remained there which is why Surrey has not had an official County Town beyond that date. The Council moved to Reigate in 2021, putting it in Surrey, but still no official County Town status has been promulgated - for either town. 2A00:23C8:9883:A001:6CD5:1224:2257:54FE (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to persuade an academic publisher to publish this information and then we can include it on Wikipedia with a citation. Until you do this, the current wording and citations will stay. Two highly reliable sources say that Guildford has been considered the county town in the past. It does not matter how they reached this conclusion. This should now be the end of this discussion. 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:7475:FA8B:65CF:68BE (talk) 15:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has been considered the County Town in the past by some people providing you don't stretch the definition of the past beyond 1900 at the earliest. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 16:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"In the past" is quite a long time? If the sources permit, it might be useful to put some rough boundaries on that. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out above the earliest known claim to the title is by Malden in the Victoria County History in 1911. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 16:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that's not true. For instance there is this mention by William Hughes in 1863 and this mention by Wedlake Brayley in 1850, for instance. 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:7475:FA8B:65CF:68BE (talk) 17:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And this mention from 1769 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:7475:FA8B:65CF:68BE (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are those all regarded as WP:RS? Perhaps some attributed claims could be added? David M. Palliser is the only source that mentions the 12th century? But even he says just "functioned as", not named. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of which mention the 12th century. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have had a further hunt around. The earliest document that I can find that describes Guildford as the county town is an early map of 1739 entitled The ichnography or ground plan of Guldeford, the county town of Surrey, Anno Dom. 1739. A database reference for it is here . 2A02:C7C:A89B:F00:7475:FA8B:65CF:68BE (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Problem with documents of that antiquity is that peer review was unheard of and most were what we would now term as self-published sources. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Guildford, Surrey (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion

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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Guildford, Surrey (disambiguation). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 27#Guildford, Surrey (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:57, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Guildford Library (North St) opening date

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While looking through back issues of the Surrey Advertiser, I came across an article about Guildford Library in North Street. It opened to borrowers on 15 August 1962. The reference is: {{cite news |title= Crowds at the new library |date= 18 August 1962 |work= Surrey Advertiser |issue= 12,209 |page= 1 }}. There may have been an official opening ceremony at a later date, but I haven't yet come across a report about it. I don't think this date needs to be added to the Guildford article at the moment, but am noting it here in case it is useful in the future. Mertbiol (talk) 10:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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